Talk:Faith Arcana
https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/in-season/2016/tarot Source: Metropolitan Museum of Art, the largest art museum in the US. There are also various other sources that display images of the Pope, Popess, and Star in the Visconti-Sforza tarot deck. The Visconti-Sforza tarot deck has all of the standard Arcana: World, Angels (Judgement), Sun, Moon, Star, Temperance, Death, Traitor (Hanged Man), Old Man (Hermit), Wheel of Fortune, Fortitude (Strength), Chariot, Justice, Love (Lovers), Pope (Hierophant), Emperor, Popess (High Priestess), Empress, Mounteback (Magician), and Fool. The only missing Arcana are, understandably, the Devil and the Tower. Hope, Charity, and Faith are separate, distinct additions to the usual trump Arcana. Another ancient deck utilizing Arcana trumps, Minchiate deck (info can be easily found/searched), originating from the early 1500s, have the theological virtues as clearly distinct trumps, separate from the Pope, Popess, and Star. The Minchiate deck uses all 7 virtues: Temperance (6), Strength (7), Justice (8), Hope (16), Prudence (17), Faith (18), and Charity (19). High Priestess is absent, but all other 21 standard trumps are present, in addition to the other 4 virtues. Pope/Hierophant (4) and Star (36) are clearly different Arcana than the virtues. :I see a vague statement on cards being present on that page without a full listing. What about the Cary-Yale Visconti deck also having the Faith, Hope and Charity cards? Great Mara (talk) 06:47, June 16, 2019 (UTC) :: The'' Visconti Tarot mentioned on the page ''is ''the Cary-Yale deck. The ''Visconti-Sforza Tarot and the Visconti Tarot were both created by the artist, Bonifacio Bembo. Visconti Tarot was created as a luxury card deck for Filippo Maria Visconti, while the Visconti-Sforza Tarot ''was created for Maria Visconti's son-in-law. As detailed in the source, tarocchi (tarot's predecessor) was a card game that added a wild card (Fool) and 21 trumps (Major Arcana) to the standard 4 suits (Minor Arcana) which has 4 court cards per suit (king, queen, knight, and knave). :: ''Edit: Devil and Tower should be included as there are 21 trumps+Fool. The curator doesn't mention them strangely; possibly because their place in the hierarchy at the time is unknown, or possibly because they follow different rules. Or the curator just forgot to mention them. :: Maria Visconti's son-in-law's deck followed the standard tarocchi format. However, Maria Visconti's own deck deviated from the norm, as stated, "Tarot has as many as six court cards per suit, including a male and female of all ranks. '''In addition to the more usual trumps,' it also includes three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity."'' :: Maria Visconti's deck changed the court cards (king, queen, male knight, female knight, male knave, female knave) and added 8 more cards to the overall total of the Minor Arcana (56>64), and it also added 3 more trumps to the usual trumps (22>25). :: YongYoKyo (talk) 07:30, June 16, 2019 (UTC) :::And some sources are showing contradictory information such as http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/cary-yale-visconti/review.shtml. And another if I can find it again. And considering the appearance of the P5R card and the pope being connected to faith, what do you suggest the Faith Arcana would be analagous to? Great Mara (talk) 07:51, June 16, 2019 (UTC) :::: The first issue I see with that source is that these are reviews for a commercial reproduction of the deck, including recreations for missing/lost cards. Secondly, as far as credibility goes, product reviews from fortune teller customers hold little weight against a curator from the Department of Medieval Art at one of the biggest art museums in the world. :::: The appearance of the P5 Faith card is based on the Visconti Tarot artwork. The Visconti Tarot Pope also closely resembles the Visconti Tarot ''Faith, except the Pope is depicting a bearded man instead of a priestess-like figure. The visual similarities between P5 Faith and P5 Hierophant (namely the staves, both of which share similar cross-like designs in ''Visconti Tarot) is probably due to this connection, as well as the fact that Faith is supposed to be designed as part of a matching set with the rest of the P5 Arcana (so aesthetic themes and visual elements are shared and repeated, and Marseilles ''Hierophant and ''Visconti ''Faith both happened to have a religious staff and similar poses). :::: As for which standard Arcana it would be analagous to? None. As I have shown, Faith lies outside of the standard 22 trumps. Faith isn't just referring to a generic belief in God; it is specifically referring to the theological virtue: faith. There are 7 virtues (3 theological and 4 cardinal), and each are equally important and distinct to the church. 3 of the virtues even have their own unique Arcana. If Strength, Justice, and Temperance are not analogous with Hierophant; why should Faith be? ''Minchiate, a deck almost as old as Visconti Tarot, ''also treats all 7 virtues (including the missing Prudence) as their own unique trumps. :::: ''Minchiate ''and ''Visconti ''(according to the curator) don't treat Faith as an alternative to Hierophant, and evidently, Persona 5 doesn't either. Persona has always numbered alternative Arcana: Aeon (20), Jester (0), Lust/Hunger (11), and even the new Consultant (1). Even though Consultant was numbered, Faith is left unnumbered.YongYoKyo (talk) 08:46, June 16, 2019 (UTC) ::::: http://tarotmysterium.com/deck_info.php?section=Visconti%20di%20Modrone I believe I found the origins of how this skewed misinformation started. ::::: ''"However, for those who wish to look up corresponding Waite-Smith style card meanings, this Web site places the cards representing the theological virtues — Faith, Hope, Charity — where other decks have the Pope, the Star and the Papess; '''this order is not authoritative and is probably not the original order' (if there was one), but follows a suggested (but question-marked) comparison in a table on page 45 of The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Volume II by Stuart R. Kaplan."'' ::::: This encyclopedia was published in 1986, about 500 years after the Visconti Tarot. ''Morever, the book is focused on the divining intepretations and esoteric symbolism of tarot cards. The ''Visconti Tarot was created long before tarot divination was popularized, and was primarily used as a card game deck. Morever, the Visconti Tarot was a custom and modified commissioned deck, fundamentally different from the standard modern tarot structure, as shown by the suit cards (Minor Arcana). Modern readings and reversed readings didn't exist back then, and whatever meanings these trumps did have probably differ wildly from our modern interpretation. This encyclopedia is clearly not trying to be historically accurate, but to force the Visconti Tarot to abide by modern tarot structure and esoteric interpretations.YongYoKyo (talk) 10:30, June 16, 2019 (UTC)